Seven hours and fifty minutes after nothing
By: André | February 1st, 2010
I own this place (Adriano about Maracanã)
I’m sorry Roma and Lazio, Gremio and Inter, Palmeiras and Corinthians, Boca and River, Barcelona and Real Madrid, Inter and Milan, Fener and Galatasaray, Liverpool and Everton, Arsenal and Spurs (or Chelsea). I’m really sorry, guys, but the World’s greatest derby we all know it’s Fla-Flu. Why? It’s in the land of football, in the World’s most famous stadium, envolving the World’s larger supporting group and with matches like the one that took place on this January 31, 2010.
Fluminense gave me the saddest moment of my life. In 1995, in the year of Flamengo centenary, Renato Gaucho scored a goal with his belly and took the Carioca title from Flamengo few minutes before the end of the match. I was only nine and that made me sick. In 2004, Flu was beating Flamengo 3-0 (with Romario making a hatrick) and Flamengo won that match 4-3. I may imagine that I got my revenge that day. Not really. It wasn’t a match with all the coverage that the 1995 one received. There weren’t many good players and both teams were going through a tough moment.
Yesterday, January 31, 2010, was the day I got my sweet revenge. A friend said to me ‘Lakers and Celtics are playing right now. That’s a basketball game’ and I answered ‘Fla-Flu. That’s a game’. Few minutes later, Flu scored the first goal and he asked me ‘Why are you so quiet?’. I counted to 1,000 and refused to answer him. Seconds later Flu scored the second one and just when I was here looking for someone to blame, Flamengo scored. Great, I thought, but Fluminense scored once again and the referee ended the first half (3-1).
Andrade sacked Fernando and Pet (who might have played his last match for Mengão) putting Willians and Vinícius Pacheco into the field. Love scored the second one and Kleberson, the equalizer. After that, Alvaro got red carded and I think this was the best moment for the team. He was so terrible that if he kept playing, we could have faced some more trouble.
And I think that 20 minutes later Adriano woke up and thought ‘Let’s finish them’. The Imperador scored his second goal on a beautiful counterattack and eight minutes later he decided to show that he owns Maracanã, running from almost the centre line after a glorious million-yard pass that came from Willians, ending the match with a 5-3 final score.
I love Pet and as I have already said here, he’s the best player I’ve ever seen wearing the manto rubronegro but even being a genious I don’t think we’ll miss him. Do you know why? Because we have one thing no other team have: Andrade. Each match he proves to be better than I thought. And because we have Adriano, Vagner Love, Maldonado, Leo Moura, Bruno, Kleberson, Willians [...] And of course, because we’re Flamengo.
Yesterday I watched one of the best matches of my entire life and Flamengo proved to be favorites to whatever competition they play. Fla-Flu’s are always anthologic, either by the history of both teams or by the match itself, and this was a noteworthy one to be highlighted in the annals of this derby.
I’d like to thank Matt, for the distraction during the most tense moments of the match. Hahaha
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We’ll miss him, André. Even Arthurzinho thinks so, calling it péssima notícia. We don’t have a creative midfielder, pass distributor, and team leader like Pet. He’s the difference between winning and losing the Libertadores, in my view. If you want to win it, we’ll need Pet. Without him, Flamengo’s much more vulnerable. Arthur made the point that if the team leaders, like Bruno, Leo, Adriano, Alvaro want Pet to stay, they can work something out and smooth things over with MB, Flamengo does not need drama now, and Pet’s loss, if it happens, will be significant.
Watch out, here come the fans: Storm the barricades! Down with the Cartolas!
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He was there in 2002 in that pathetic campaign. He was also in that 2001 Copa Mercosur final, being red carded because of some ridiculous problem.
I don’t think he’s the difference between winning or losing the Libertadores. Who are the greatest South American players nowadays? Román? He won’t even play. Ronaldo? He gets injured every match. There isn’t a player capable of winning a entire championship.
One other thing. Do you remeber in 2008 when we had Renato Augusto, Souza and Marcinho? That was a terrible attack. Renato is a good player, but nothing more than that and the other two are terrible. Even so, until they were sold, Flamengo was leading Brasileirão. And they did a very good Libertadores. The problem, that year, was the ’sobrenatural de Almeida’, who decided to act in that America-MEX match. I rather have a experienced centre-back, who will help this sieve that we call defence.
Pet is a genious, as I said before, but he does know how to dismantle a group and it was just a matter of time so this kind of problem would start appearing.
And I agree, if the team leaders want to close the squad, they should talk to MB, working this thing out. I hope they do. =)
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André, what’s with two existentialist headlines in a row — 40 minutes … then 7 hours and 50 minutes after nothing — what do they mean?
Is there life before and after Flamengo? Hahaha.
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This has turned into a real “novela.” Pet’s agent — the lowest lifeform in the football chain — said Pet left Maracanã because he lacked the “psychological conditions” to be there. In other words, he had a nervous breakdown? Then the agent said it seems to be a “personal conspiracy by Marcos Braz with Pet.” Just adding more fuel to the fire, or as Pet would say, “jogando lenha no fogueira.”
This is the LAST thing Flamengo needs.
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As an outsider, and you may wish to ignore my opinion here, but I think you’re both right.
I watched yesterday’s game and two things are apparent:
1. Fla CANNOT defend. I don’t see that defence winning too much. Also, Fernando gives the ball away too much. A centre-back MUSt be a priority. Plus, why play a midfielder like Fierro in place of Leo Moura instead of another right-back? I know it’s common to do that in Brazil but it doesn’t make sense. Fierro’s a small, attacking player, not a defender…
2. Petkovic looks a class above the others in terms of his passing and creativity. Adriano’s a genius but can’t do it without service from the midfield. From what I know of the other midfielders, they’re mostly what we’d call in England ‘box-to-box’ players – they run up and down, but don’t create much. Kléberson won’t split a defence with a brilliant pass.
But you can’t rely on a 37-year-old to supply your entire team for an entire season.
I like Vinicius Pacheco though.
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Chris, good comments. I agree. Flamengo’s aging players are precisely our two central defenders and Pet. So it’s really critical, IMO, for the team to sign a strong, above-average central defender going into the toughest competition in South America, which is the Libertadores. We’ve got a great offense, to be sure, but at some point, the defense will have to step up. There are always those tight games along the way where the offense is partly neutralized and the D has to shut it down. If you watched Flamengo’s Hexa trajectory, you would have noticed the importance of midfielder Maldonado, protecting the D and linking with the offense. He, along with Williams, and now Vinicius Pacheco can take the pressure off the D. But I think one of those two guys, R. Angelim or Alvaro, will have to be replaced by that elusive, yet-to-be-signed topline central defender.
One commentator said Pet’s loss would be felt because those two guys on offense won’t have Pet’s genius to feed them the passes from midfield. Marcos Braz did a lot, getting Ramon, Fernando, and others to spell Pet in midfield. But no one can replace him.
Pet’s been dialing back, so I hope they can resolve their differences. This isn’t meant to be sexist, but as I said to André, having a woman club president to cool down macho tempers could turn out to be a good thing. We’ll see.
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I’ll try to be brief here because there’s loads I could say about this subject!
1. Defenders – I don’t know Fla’s financial situation (although I’ve heard it’s bad), but Sao Paulo have about 63 Zagueiros, and they won three Brasileiros in a row. Otherwise, of the top of my head, Santos have Edu Dracena who has European and Selecao experience. Surely someone like that could be brought in for the Libertadores?
2. Maldonado – I haven’t seen much of him recently, but I remember him from Cruzeiro years ago. He’s basically like Makelele was for France & Chelsea – an all-out defensive midfielder, but a VERY good one. He is an important absence.
3. Pet – whether he stays or goes, he’ll be 38 in September. If they succeed in every competition, Fla will play something like 75 matches. They’ll want to compete to win in all of them, certainly in two.
To do that they need at least one replacement for Petkovic. A passing midfielder, a ‘number 10′ – just like him. Brazilian football used to be full of them. Now the best ones all play in Europe. I think it’s a sad situation when in one of the classic derbies of the world, there were only two true creative players in the starting 11s – and they were both foreign (Pet and Conca).
Where is Pet’s replacement going to come from? I don’t know anyone in Europe currently available. PSV have just sacked Jonathan Reis but he’s a striker.
Oh, and sorry André, but you’re wrong about derbies. You left out Rangers v Celtic in Scotland which is full of religious hatred.
And of course, Real Madrid v Barca, which although not a derby, is the biggest club fixture in the world.
Mind you, for me it’s Everton v Liverp**l – which is coming up this weekend!
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Are you going to the match?
About the Scottish derby, I know about it, but I consider the match much more as a rivalry than as a derby. Ranger v Celtic isn’t well known here and all the others I mentioned are very recognized here in Brazil.
About Flamengo. We’re financially screwed. You must look for a defender to loan. Rodrigo, for example, who already played for Flamengo, finished his contract with São Paulo and is having some problems with Dynamo Kiev. Some say he’ll join Flamengo but first he has to decide his contract with Dynamo.
And finaly, I have no idea of who could sub Pet. But he’s agent is now saying he was wrong and things might get on the right way.
Good luck on the match this weekend and you’re right. Maldonado is VERY good!
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No, I won’t be at the match – I live near London, about 200 miles from Liverpool, and tickets are VERY expensive over here. Plus I wouldn’t go to ‘their’ place! Although it was ours originally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anfield#History).
World Soccer magazine published a list of the top 50 derbies in football. That puts Rangers v Celtic at number 3 (there’s a LOT of hatred in that game). See what you think. (http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/world-soccers-50-greatest-derbies.html).
Fla are down at number 13 – but it’s Flamengo v Vasco, NOT Fla!
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Oops, I mean Fla v Vasco, not Fla v Flu.
I know my Fla and Flu, honestly.
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I already read this list and as in almost every list, I disagree. Egypt? C’mon!
I know about the hatred in the game, but here, in Brazil, nobody watch. I know both of the them, I watch the match everytime I get the chance, I love Celtic shirt, but I don’t say they’re known all over the world. It’s like Partizan Belgrade and Red Star Belgrade. They HATE each other, but they are unknown and I bet it’s not only here.
About Vasco, maybe this survey was made in a period which Vasco was facing Flamengo in too much finals, but historically our main rival is Flu. Do you know the history of both teams? It’s pretty interesting.
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Just to make one thing clear. I’m not decreasing the importance of the Old Firm, but I’ll always defend Flamengo (hahaha) and after Fla-Flu the World’s greatest rivalry is Uberlândia (my city small team) v Uberaba, which is also comming this weekend.
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Yeah, I guess Scottish matches wouldn’t be seen much in Brazil – they’re a very small country – but one of the birthplaces of the game in Brazil, so important too.
I know some of the history of Fla – Flu, how Flamengo were formed by breaking away from Fluminense. Everton broke away from the man who owned their stadium, so that man formed Liverp**l.
I know all about clubs breaking from each other!
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I went to the so-called “Top 50 derbies and got the message: “This page has been shown the red card”. Hahaha . . . So much for that. Fla-Flu ranks at the top, as André posted, poet, playwright and avid football fan Nelson Rodrigues so eloquently and poetically decreed. That’s just the way it is.
Latest news on Pet: A warning but no fine, much less contract rescission. He’s still training separately — Marcos Braz has to save some face — but will be back with the team soon, guaranteed. And they don’t even have to kiss and make up; Patricia can do it to, and for, them.
GOOD JOB, MADAM PRESIDENT PATRICIA AMORIM!
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Speaking of team rivalries, to a point Chris and André made, Zico commented on the Greek fan rivalry between Olympiacos (that sacked him as coach) and Panathinakos (I think), lamenting the fan violence was such that one team’s fans could not visit the other team’s venue. Comparing it to Brazilian “Clássicos” like the Fla-Flu, he said it was so unfortunate from the POV of the fan and the spectacle, the celebration, that it went against everything the game should be about. Maybe Zico’s too much of a football purist and wasn’t meant to coach in a tough environment like Greece.
We’ve tried to keep fan violence to a minimum, despite the unfortunate events in Paraná. Chris, how did British soccer put an end to “hooliganism”? Now, it’s as if it had never existed.
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http://www.theoffside.com/world-football/world-soccers-50-greatest-derbies.html
Try now, Carlos.
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Wow, that’s quite a question, Carlos. Realistically, it was death that brought about change.
Firstly, sorry if you know this already. I’ll tell it from the beginning anyway. i don’t know how old you guys are or how much this stuff is known in Brasil.
Hooliganism became a real problem in the UK in the 1970s and 1980s. The worst incident was the 1985 European Cup final, when Liverp**l fans rioted, attacking Juventus fans who had being throwing things at them. The Liverp**l fans charged, causing a wall to collapse (the stadium was old and falling to pieces), and 39 Juventus fans died. This led to English clubs being banned from European matches for five years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysel_disaster).
There were still incidents at home in England in the period 1985-90, but not so much. Hooliganism basically stopped after 1989, when the Hillsborough disaster occurred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_Disaster). Here, thousands Liverp**l fans (NOT rioting, it must be said) were allowed into a full stand with locked fences and gates at the end. The rush of fans in (as the game had started), crushed the fans at the front against the fences, and 96 people died.
Basically, the problems (and deaths) with hooliganism were caused by stadiums, police and tickets. After these disasters, TV cameras came into grounds, with larger numbers of police and security to keep people safe. Hooligans also got sent to jail and got banned from football as well.
After Hillsborough, all stadiums (in the top division at least) became all-seater. The problems at Heysel and Hillsborough were on terraces (sorry I can’t remember what you call them in Brasil). From then on, everyone had proper tickets for matches, often only sold in advance, and stands were NEVER allowed to have more people in than they coulf hold.
With the new facilities, prices for tickets went up (20 years ago you could see Everton on a terrace for about £5, now it’s over £30). With extra security, safer environment and proper ticketing, the problem faded.
There are still incidents occasionally, but very little compared to 30 years ago. The trouble is, as you point out Carlos, across Europe and S. America, other countries have not done the same – Italy, Greece, Turkey, Eastern Europe – even countries like Holland have a problem – and of course Argentina is very bad too. Brasil needs to stamp the problem out before it can get any worse. It will look VERY bad for 2014 if hooligans are around. Brasil is dangerous enough already!
Sorry for the long answer – my final project for university was on football supporter psychology so it’s a real thing of mine!
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Wow, that’s quite a question, Carlos. Realistically, it was people dying that brought about change.
Firstly, sorry if you know this already. I’ll tell it from the beginning anyway. i don’t know how old you guys are or how much this stuff is known in Brasil.
Hooliganism became a real problem in the UK in the 1970s and 1980s. The worst incident was the 1985 European Cup final, when Liverp**l fans rioted, attacking Juventus fans who had being throwing things at them. The Liverp**l fans charged, causing a wall to collapse (the stadium was old and falling to pieces), and 39 Juventus fans died. This led to English clubs being banned from European matches for five years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysel_disaster).
There were still incidents at home in England in the period 1985-90, but not so much. Hooliganism basically stopped after 1989, when the Hillsborough disaster occurred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_Disaster). Here, thousands Liverp**l fans (NOT rioting, it must be said) were allowed into a full stand with locked fences and gates at the end. The rush of fans in (as the game had started), crushed the fans at the front against the fences, and 96 people died.
Basically, the problems (and deaths) with hooliganism were caused by stadiums, police and tickets. After these disasters, TV cameras came into grounds, with larger numbers of police and security to keep people safe. Hooligans also got sent to jail and got banned from football as well.
After Hillsborough, all stadiums (in the top division at least) became all-seater. The problems at Heysel and Hillsborough were on terraces (sorry I can’t remember what you call them in Brasil). From then on, everyone had proper tickets for matches, often only sold in advance, and stands were NEVER allowed to have more people in than they coulf hold.
With the new facilities, prices for tickets went up (20 years ago you could see Everton on a terrace for about £5, now it’s over £30). With extra security, safer environment and proper ticketing, the problem faded.
There are still incidents occasionally, but very little compared to 30 years ago. The trouble is, as you point out Carlos, across Europe and S. America, other countries have not done the same – Italy, Greece, Turkey, Eastern Europe – even countries like Holland have a problem – and of course Argentina is very bad too. Brasil needs to stamp the problem out before it can get any worse. It will look VERY bad for 2014 if hooligans are around. Brasil is dangerous enough already!
Sorry for the long answer – my final project for university was on football supporter psychology so it’s a real thing of mine!
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That’s why I don’t read World Soccer Magazine, nor do I pay much attention to these lists. I thought the red card comment was PERFECT.
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Sorry, Carlos – it won’t let me post my comment on Hooliganism. Maybe it was too long? Let me try again.
Wow, that’s quite a question, Carlos. Realistically, it was death that brought about change.
Firstly, sorry if you know this already. I’ll tell it from the beginning anyway. i don’t know how old you guys are or how much this stuff is known in Brasil.
Hooliganism became a real problem in the UK in the 1970s and 1980s. The worst incident was the 1985 European Cup final, when Liverp**l fans rioted, attacking Juventus fans who had being throwing things at them. The Liverp**l fans charged, causing a wall to collapse (the stadium was old and falling to pieces), and 39 Juventus fans died. This led to English clubs being banned from European matches for five years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysel_disaster).
There were still incidents at home in England in the period 1985-90, but not so much. Hooliganism basically stopped after 1989, when the Hillsborough disaster occurred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_Disaster). Here, thousands Liverp**l fans (NOT rioting, it must be said) were allowed into a full stand with locked fences and gates at the end. The rush of fans in (as the game had started), crushed the fans at the front against the fences, and 96 people died.
Basically, the problems (and deaths) with hooliganism were caused by stadiums, police and tickets. After these disasters, TV cameras came into grounds, with larger numbers of police and security to keep people safe. Hooligans also got sent to jail and got banned from football as well.
After Hillsborough, all stadiums (in the top division at least) became all-seater. The problems at Heysel and Hillsborough were on terraces (sorry I can’t remember what you call them in Brasil). From then on, everyone had proper tickets for matches, often only sold in advance, and stands were NEVER allowed to have more people in than they coulf hold.
With the new facilities, prices for tickets went up (20 years ago you could see Everton on a terrace for about £5, now it’s over £30). With extra security, safer environment and proper ticketing, the problem faded.
There are still incidents occasionally, but very little compared to 30 years ago. The trouble is, as you point out Carlos, across Europe and S. America, other countries have not done the same – Italy, Greece, Turkey, Eastern Europe – even countries like Holland have a problem – and of course Argentina is very bad too. Brasil needs to stamp the problem out before it can get any worse. It will look VERY bad for 2014 if hooligans are around. Brasil is dangerous enough already!
Sorry for the long answer – my final project for university was on football supporter psychology so it’s a real thing of mine!
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Chris,
The blog was filtering your comment as spam. Carlos had the same problem few days ago.
Could you please send me your final project? I’ll be delighted to read it.
I used to work with this and I’m going back to business this semester.
Email me. andresavastano [at] gmail.com
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Sorry, André – I graduated from university in 1999! I don’t have it any more!
You could try this link (http://www.le.ac.uk/so/css/resources/factsheets/fs1.html), which has a good summing up of the situation and some other books you imght be ab;e to look up.
To be honest, I just googled ‘Football hooliganism’ and there’s loads you can see. Back when I did my project, I didn’t use the internet at all – it was all in books!
This is the UK Home Office page about it http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/football-disorder/index.html
There’s loads out there – in English at least. Sorry I can’t be more help!
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No problem. It’s a great help.
But I know something about it. My former boss is the guy who wrote the Brazilian “Supporters Code”, which each club must follow and he did it based on what he learnt from you guys. He went to UK so he could do his research and than wrote it. He’s also the guy who developed the clubs lottery, which, theoretically would enable clubs to pay their debts.
Quite a guy, but none of the ideas are working 100%. Interesting article this one you sent though.
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ALL IN BOOKS!?! Man, Chris, it’s hard to imagine doing something so labor-intensive. Imagine having to type in all your quotes and footnote references instead of cut & paste. The internet is a great research tool, but when I want to read a book, I still read a book, I’m not going to download it.
André, that’s interesting. As far as fan violence goes, it seems as if things have improved a lot in Brasil; I don’t read about it going on in serious ways in Rio anymore. Maybe it’s the improved economy. What lottery are you referring to? I remember it’s been around for decades. Back in the day it was a punchcard that you filled out win win-tie-loss that went into a machine, much like the Lotto they have in the USA. It was pretty sophisticated technology for its time. When it comes to gambling, no expense is spared!
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Carlos, Timemania.
Tonight I’ll write the new post.
Posted from
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